User Name  
Password    



The Aviation Forum > Aviation > General Aviation > Playing with throttle alot
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 11-11-2013, 06:16 PM   #1 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Vlad_Arm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 27, 2005
Location: Los Angeles, CA, US (from Yerevan, Armenia)
Posts: 2,432
Playing with throttle alot

Playing with throttle alot throughout final approach, short approach, and touchdown...

This is something that I have been noticing other pilots do. Well not all of them, but the majority. Keeps me wandering how does the habit form? Bad instructors maybe? Correct me if I am wrong, but there is really no good reason to play with throttle that much.

You (read - I think you are supposed to) set a power setting and fly to wherever you want to fly, if at certain point you notice that you are under-powered, you add a bit, if over-powered take out a bit, then when when you arrive to the runway/flare/whenever-you-decide-to-idle and set an idle power, you don't touch that thing unless something drastic happens or your are trying to go around. Of course I am talking about 'normal' approach in more or less 'stable' conditions.

If I was an instructor, from the start I would not let any unnecessary throttle adjustments. On take off - you set full power and go, on descend you bring the power back and let it there why do instructors allow their students play with the throttle, instead of flying the plane

What are you thoughts on this issue.
__________________
---live and dream about the days that are yet to come---

My youtube channel
Vlad_Arm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2013, 06:56 PM   #2 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Ira NZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 18, 2003
Location: Upper Hutt, New Zealand
Posts: 3,951
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad_Arm View Post
On take off - you set full power and go, on descend you bring the power back and let it there why do instructors allow their students play with the throttle, instead of flying the plane

What are you thoughts on this issue.
I'd have thought throttle control is a pretty crucial part of flying the plane?
__________________
'15000 atheists in London rioted after a blank sheet of paper was found on a cartoonist's desk'

If you pull back long enough.... Eventually, the houses will get bigger again.
Ira NZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2013, 07:07 PM   #3 (permalink)
TAF Moderator
 
Bluenose's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 09, 2004
Location: Canada's East Coast
Posts: 6,169
While I agree that ideally you shouldn't be increasing-decreasing, increasing-decreasing, you also don't want to be set on the idea of "I need to keep my throttle setting steady".

If the wind is steady (i.e. stabilized descent angle) and you are experienced in that particular airplane, you should be fairly comfortable with setting a power setting and then changing only as you chang the profile (i.e. as the gear and flap come in). The important thing, though, is to maintain a descent angle and speed - if that requires a change in power, so be it. And as the wind changes in the descent, it is likely that the power must also be changed.

What is useful is to know approx where the power should be set for any given profile, and to set it there initially and then adjust as necessary.

Ultimately, even if you play with the throttle throughout the entire approach, at best you are not efficient or look inexperienced. If on the other hand, you focus too much on keeping a setting and sacrifice the descent profile or airspeed, then you may end up doing an unsafe landing, or in the extreme, a CFIT accident.
__________________
Bluenose
TAF Moderator

Last edited by Bluenose; 11-11-2013 at 07:11 PM.
Bluenose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2013, 07:54 PM   #4 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Vlad_Arm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 27, 2005
Location: Los Angeles, CA, US (from Yerevan, Armenia)
Posts: 2,432
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ira NZ View Post
I'd have thought throttle control is a pretty crucial part of flying the plane?

CONTROL - being the keyword, I will agree and it doesn't need to involve overly excessive power adjustments.

Also just to be clear my main post was directed towards GA flyers


Let me give you a very simple example.

You are in pattern on downwind in a C172, right a beam the threshold you can set your power to 1700rpm, and if the rest is done properly, you can execute a safe turn to base than final. Time the extension of flaps to control the remaining aspects of the descent and just cut to idle 20-30 ft agl, and make a nice and beautiful landing. That will also particularly allow for safe landing in case of complete engine failure, by completely eliminating the flap extension.


I know this is 'simple', but that's when proper power control should be taught and mastered. I SEE A LOT OF MY FRIENDS move the throttle so much as if their life depends on it[I usually will not comment on it, unless its very few of my closest friends - i don't like being a bad right side driver.haha].


Blue, my theory (and practice in my case) is that after setting the approach power (and until the profile is changed) every subsequent adjustment should be of 'less' magnitude (otherwise you are doing something excessive, pretty much like over-controlling the airplane or overs tearing the car by novice drivers either with wheel, or excessive gas and braking for speed control.
__________________
---live and dream about the days that are yet to come---

My youtube channel
Vlad_Arm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2013, 05:15 AM   #5 (permalink)
TAF Moderator
 
Bluenose's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 09, 2004
Location: Canada's East Coast
Posts: 6,169
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad_Arm View Post
...Blue, my theory (and practice in my case) is that after setting the approach power (and until the profile is changed) every subsequent adjustment should be of 'less' magnitude (otherwise you are doing something excessive, pretty much like over-controlling the airplane or overs tearing the car by novice drivers either with wheel, or excessive gas and braking for speed control.
Ahhh - I get what you are saying - rather than small adjustments to correct the path, they are jamming it on, taking it off, jamming it on, taking it off....

Are they perhaps quite infrequent fliers? I get the impression that you get flying quite regularly, Vlad, but I know that most of my friends who do not fly for hire don't get flying all that regularly - not even the ones that own their own airplane. Around here, between IMC days and then ones where it's clear but freezing and you just can't face the cold cold flight, there are a lot of times when most people can't/don't want to fly.

I picture it as a nervous reaction (I don't want to say a panic reaction, but similar, just of less magnitude). While they don't sound like they are comfortably in control, at least they are reacting and not just letting things go bad. You're smart not to say anything in general, Vlad, just maybe take turns doing circuits or something and hope that they learn from watching you to make small adjustments (unless a drastic change is required).
__________________
Bluenose
TAF Moderator
Bluenose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2013, 03:39 PM   #6 (permalink)
TAF Moderator
 
Redguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 09, 2004
Location: Somewhere Cold and White
Posts: 9,280
When my co-pilots first start out they always want to play with the power leavers. So I make them keep their hands off them until they learn to fly the plane with the proper power settings and adjust their approach by properly timing when to put the gear down and add flaps. For the most part I set my final power setting about 6 miles out, give or take depending on wind and altitude. Rarely do I need to adjust it from there until I pull the power for touchdown. The exception to this is in very gusty/ turbulant conditions.

However it should be noted that I have signifficant expirence in all the planes I fly. I spend more time in them than I do driving so it's become somewhat second nature to me.
Redguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2013, 05:18 PM   #7 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Vlad_Arm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 27, 2005
Location: Los Angeles, CA, US (from Yerevan, Armenia)
Posts: 2,432
Red - you just described what I did to a friend recently. had him set a power and control the rest with anything but power re-adjustment followed by an idle power setting and a nice touchdown
I do agree however that the more complex the plane the more experience is needed, but I see no excuse why a PPL that just got his/her license on a C172 or a PA28 shouldn't be able to to that on that same exact plane. It would be more like instructor's failure to aid in developing proper habits
__________________
---live and dream about the days that are yet to come---

My youtube channel
Vlad_Arm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2013, 09:58 AM   #8 (permalink)
TAF Moderator
 
Redguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 09, 2004
Location: Somewhere Cold and White
Posts: 9,280
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad_Arm View Post
Red - you just described what I did to a friend recently. had him set a power and control the rest with anything but power re-adjustment followed by an idle power setting and a nice touchdown
I do agree however that the more complex the plane the more experience is needed, but I see no excuse why a PPL that just got his/her license on a C172 or a PA28 shouldn't be able to to that on that same exact plane. It would be more like instructor's failure to aid in developing proper habits
When you take away all the extra gauges, switches, radio's and such in all reality the planes I fly are no more complex than your basic multi- trainer, if there is such a thing anymore.
Redguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2013, 11:53 PM   #9 (permalink)
C-17 Stick Actuator
 
Sirecks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 03, 2007
Location: Summerville, SC
Posts: 1,612
In our jet Vlad, sometimes the throttle movement is very herky jerky. This is due to our HUD and the visual elements in it showing us our aim point for touchdown. You would think we were over controlling maybe.

Thermals, gusts, wind shears, etc. will cause our aim point to drop short of the threshold, or shoot another 2,000 ft. down the runway in the HUD. It is momentary, but if you don't adjust the power, the new improper aim point will stick and now you'll be screwed. So given flying over parking lots, to trees, to a lake, to open fields there are constantly changing winds on a hot day, etc., we are sometimes constantly changing the throttles to maintain our aim point, and sometimes in big movements.

Now, you are not talking about a HUD. But I remember from my old Cessna days being taught to pick a bug on a the windscreen and keeping it on a spot on the runway once configured and on approach speed to maintain an aim point. Are these throttle movements maybe to keep a pinpoint aim point steady using the ol' bug technique? LOL!! Meaning, given the wind conditions and the weather, plus a really specific aim point, that might need some really big throttle movements. Or am I completely off base here?
__________________
FRIENDS DON'T LET FRIENDS FLY PLANES WITHOUT HUD's

My "Facebook" page
Sirecks is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share This Content

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:08 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
(c) 2002-2012 The Aviation Forum, All Rights ReservedAd Management plugin by RedTyger

Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.1